Thread: The Zen art of trading

Originally Posted by ;

This is the numbers that let me create these logic rules:

Unforeseen,

a great thread, keep it up. If your number crunching is not yet finalized, please consider also adding current volatility as a measure to determine your next position size. The connection is the inverse one: with higher volatility, you need to reduce position size, with reduced volatility one ought to boost position size...

The ratio for this: with higher volatility, if you're on the incorrect side of the market, you're likely to make losses large and quick, and that means you want to reduce risk by having smaller rankings. If you're on the right side of the market - using a more compact position - you're likely to earn anyway, as the higher volatility will yield more pips.

Reducing position size when current volatility is significantly higher is key for a smoother and more consistent equity curve. Place this connection in your version, you are going to be surprised...

Originally Posted by ;

Ahh yes completely. I've traded more on a live account on a demo account, and completely respect the pychological differences between these.

The most important reason I stopped live would be to address those flaws I'd find, and that I discovered major holes in my money management. It wasn't that I lacked the subject so much, as I had drawdown rules defined to apply the subject to in the first place. I am continuing to hammer away at ensuring the risk is completely managed before I return to live.

Continue the good work!

Originally Posted by ;

I think Melpheos is speaking to the fact that, though everything you say about focusing on execution is accurate, a stay account has an impact on your decision making that a demo account doesn't have. You can't be harmed trading a demo account. You are perfectly secure and your subconscious understands it. The minute you move live, your mind now perceives a threat of loss. This is a remarkable difference and almost guarantees that your trading decisions will not be the exact same as they would have been trading demonion. You need to allow for this when going from demonion to reside. I love the discipline required to only demo but melpheos is right that dwell clinic is imperative to ascertain what your weaknesses and strengths are and what areas need improvement to ensure your success. This is where your zen egy will end up tested. Only reside trading will test your reactions to fear and greed. If you think you've got an edge then you're ready to test it and yourself, just don't be surprised if the results turn out different to your presentation stats

Ahh yes totally. I have traded on a live account then on a demo account, and totally respect the pychological differences between them.

The most important reason I stopped live would be to address those weaknesses I'd find, and that I discovered major holes in my money management. It was not that I lacked the discipline so much, as that I had drawdown rules defined to apply the discipline to in the first loion. I am continuing to hammer away at ensuring the risk is totally managed before I return to live.

I think Melpheos is referring to the fact that, though everything you say about focusing on execution is accurate, a stay account has an impact on your decision making that a demo account does not have. You cannot be offended trading a demo account. You're perfectly safe and your subconscious understands it. The minute you go live, your mind now perceives a threat of loss. That is a dramatic difference and almost guarantees that your trading decisions won't be exactly the same as they would have been trading demo. You need to allow for this when moving from demo to reside. I love the discipline required to only demo but melpheos is right that dwell practice is vital to determine what your weaknesses and strengths are and what areas need improvement to ensure your success. That is where your zen egy will become tested. Only reside trading will examine your reactions to greed and fear. If you think you have an edge then you are ready to examine it and yourself, just don't be surprised if the results turn out different to your demo stats

Originally Posted by ;

I'm not sure I completely understand your points, even if the information stre are exactly the same, then execution may be the same (Perhaps not in tens of thousands of dollars but in the amount I exchange I have seen no execution delays / slippage between live and demonion ). You mention a few bits of information about the demo account, but don't really say why that's due to a demo account?

I switched into a $50,000 dollar demo account to $300,000 with 0 percent drawdown, and 100% drops. How? 100% risk, 3 consecutive winning trades. Could that have occurred in live? Sure, if I was prepared to risk $50,000 on one trade.

I don't really get a thrill from actual that I don't get on demo, as I do have a live account as well but opt not to use it. The thrill to me is in powerful discipline and viewing my whole system in action, knowing the edge exists and whether or not I profit or fail is if I break my own rules.

A turning point for me was when I stopped focusing on the cash, and rather focused on the execution. Really it comes down to discipline of execution, entry, exit, and risk alloion. I get upset not if I loose a trade, but if I failed at any part of my execution. Money is simply a byproduct of good execution (execution of your edge). When I stopped focusing on the cash (or real result of a transaction ) and rather about the execution, that has been a major turning point for me.

Cheers and would love to hear more input on this

Originally Posted by ;

Dont rely too much on demo account. I was able to develop a 5M$ account into 8M$ in less than a month with 97% success ratio and max drawdown of 1.3percent (and that was trading it actually for only 10h total time spread within around 10 days in this month )

Those figures don't mean much actually (unfortunatly)

I'd counsel you to open an account with Oanda with a very minimum balance (possibly 100$) and transaction with that thanks to this use any dimension lot you would like policy of Oanda.

You will have the thrill of the actual but not the true pain in the ass I lost my shirt of the true

I am not sure I completely understand your things, if the information stre are the same, then implementation may be the same (Maybe not in tens of thousands of dollars but at the sum I exchange I've observed no implementation delays / slippage between live and demo). You mention that a few bits of information on the demo account, but don't actually say why that is due to a demo account?

I switched into a $50,000 dollar demo account to $300,000 with 0% drawdown, and 100 percent wins. How? 100 percent risk, 3 consecutive winning traders. Could that have happened in live? Sure, if I was willing to risk $50,000 on a single trade.

I don't actually get a thrill from actual that I don't get on demo, as I do have a live account too but opt not to use it. The thrill to me is in successful discipline and seeing my whole system in action, knowing the edge exists and if I profit or neglect is when I break my own rules.

A turning point for me was when I stopped focusing on the money, and rather concentrated on the implementation. Really it all comes down to discipline of implementation, entrance, departure, and risk alloion. I get upset not when I loose a transaction, but when I neglected at any part of my implementation. Money is simply a byproduct of good implementation (implementation of your advantage ). As soon as I stopped focusing on the money (or actual outcome of a trade) and instead on the implementation, that has been a major turning point for me.

Cheers and would love to hear more input on this

Originally Posted by ;

My travel is very similar to yours. Similar time and effort was put in. I've tried exponentially more difficult at this than anything I've tried in my entire life. I have recently gone after six month pressured fracture after the last of my trading funds dried up because my account has been liquidated. I lost $20,000 - half of which was borrowed funds from one of the most trying and difficult times. I am a father of 2 boys and losing funds I didn't have cost them our normal summer vaion two year running because I desperately chased my losses only to continuously fail. Solely by addresing my spiritual poverty, precisely what it is you're discussing on your thread. Was I able to turn my trading experience completely around Though much of this can't be described using phrases, It can others as the encounter is indistinguishable. My focus this year was on my desire for reality. All here is illusiory because you mentioned but experience from the market will reflect only your sense of love. If you're conscious, then you know that you need nothing. Needing nothing in the wisdom of your very own state brings inner peace and pleasure. It is this internal joy based on truth, or love that will then automatically appear before your eyes in the illusion, our personal drama,we believe is real. Success on the market is then a natural outcome from this approach.The outer fantasy world reflects what is going on from the interior world of thought I read the news, do my TA and sit and wait for an invitation to exchange from the market. I can see very clearly obvious high probability opportunities almost every time I trade. The hopeless fruion of becoming a losing trader has become easy and fun. Tracking my emotional attatchment to winning and losing is exactly what keeps me free. Whenever I slip the market immediately makes my mistake known and I take a rest and think about what is occurring and why. I started with $700 in my account 5 weeks ago and the first 2 transactions lost me $100 dollars - I could have cried, however I took another commerce, and another and another and won every day for a month straight and also triple my account! - amazing!! .Then I faltered, got greedy, changed what I was doing in a bid to try and assure I could repeat my results and bang - lost 150 pips and about $250 draw down. That has been on monday it's currently fri and I have $200 of these losses back into my account trading at only 2-3% risk a transaction - amazing!! You are on the right path Unforseen. Belief in myself is my greatest tool but I couldnt think in myself till I knew who myself was and that was the most startling revelation! Im going to hang out here for a while but I've a feeling its going to be somewhat quiet. The holy grail seekers are very likely to completely miss a thread in this way. I look forward to comparing notes farther. And your absolutely right about the difficulty of demo trading as soon as you've been live - I tip my hat of to you for this - I had no option but yours is a wise choice for patience and subject

Great to hear you're coming along nicely, and it's always interesting to hear of other's journeys down the Currency Market path

Glad to know you're on the right path

Dont rely too much on demo account. I managed to develop a 5M$ account into 8M$ in less than a month using 97% success ratio and max drawdown of 1.3% (which was trading it really for just 10h total time disperse within around 10 days within this month )

Those figures do not mean much really (unfortunatly)

I'd advise you to start an account with Oanda with a very minimum balance (possibly 100$) and transaction with that thanks to the usage any size lot you would like policy of Oanda.

You'll have the delight of the real but not the real pain in the ass I lost my shirt of the real

My journey is very like yours. Similar time and effort was put in. I've tried exponentially harder at this than anything I've attempted in my entire life. I have recently gone after six month pressured break after the last of my trading funds dried up as my account was liquidated. I dropped $20,000 - half of that was borrowed funds from one of the most trying and difficult times. I'm a father of 2 boys and losing funds I did not have cost them our normal summer vaion two year running as I desperately chased my losses only to continuously fail. Solely by addresing my religious poverty, just what you are discussing on your thread. Can I able to turn my trading expertise completely around Though a lot of this cannot be described using words, It can others as the experience is indistinguishable. My focus this year was on my desire for truth. All this is illusiory as you mentioned but expertise from the market will reflect only your awareness of love. If you are aware, then you know you need nothing. Needing nothing in the knowledge of your very own state brings inner peace and joy. It is this inner joy based on fact, or enjoy that can automatically show up before your eyes at the illusion, our private drama,that we think is real. Success on the market is a natural consequence from the approach.The outer dream world reflects what is happening from the inner world of thought Now I read the news, do my TA and sit and wait for an invitation to trade from the market. I can see very clearly obvious high probability opportunities almost every time I trade. The impossible fruion of being a losing trader has become easy and fun. Monitoring my emotional attatchment to winning and losing is exactly what keeps me free. Whenever I slip the market quickly makes my mistake known and I take a break and think about what is happening and why. I began with $700 in my account 5 weeks ago and the first 2 transactions dropped me 100 dollars - I might have cried, nevertheless I took another trade, and another and another and won daily for a month straight and also doubled my account! - amazing!! .Then I faltered, got greedy, altered what I had been doing in an effort to try and assure I could replie my outcome and bang - lost 150 pips and roughly $250 draw down. That was on monday it's now fri and I have $200 of those losses back into my account trading in only 2-3% risk a trade - amazing!! You are on the right path Unforseen. Belief in myself is my best instrument but I couldnt believe in myself till I knew who myself was that was the most startling revelation! Im going to hang out here for some time but I've a feeling its going to be a little quiet. The holy grail seekers are more likely to completely overlook a thread in this way. I look forward to comparing notes further. And your absolutely right about the difficulty of demo trading as Soon as You've been dwell - I tip my hat to you for that - I had no choice but yours is a wise choice for patience and discipline

Originally Posted by ;

SUCH a great post sudden, keep posting your trip...

Thanks, hope it will help, I'm always open to input.

Originally Posted by ;

Very interesting really.


A suggestion for the drawdown, you may wish to consider upto 10%. After 3 poor trades, you lower your position with each transaction. If you get down to 10% drawdown, you quit trading and also do forex trading for a bit.
Similiary, when your using a hot winning streak, you might consider raising your position out of more then only 2%. Only a thought.

Thank you for your input

That is precisely what I intend to do, nevertheless after crunching the numbers I'm willing to take a 15 percent drawdown. I will have a total break from trading to get at least a few days to a week when (not if )I've 6 reduction trades in a row. After the third reduction, I'll do a decrease egy of halving the lots in series, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th, etc

With all these calculations I've determined my maximum exposure at any 1 time cannot exceed 3 trades at 4 percent risk per (Otherwise it'll violate the decrease after three declines principle ), but that is a maximum I'll usually only apply if I have a higher confidence level of trades and am on a winning streak.

This is the amounts that let me create these logic rules: